Talk:Ukrainians

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Vernadsky

Ukrainian language form of his name is Volodymyr. Vladimir is russian language one. 77.237.14.246 (talk) 05:07, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Citizens of Ukraine

Surprised article doesn't mention that Ukrainians are also all the citizens of Ukraine, as all encyclopedias do mention (Encyclopedia of Ukraine, Encyclopedia of the history of Ukraine) right in the lead. Will add that later with sources. Manyareasexpert (talk) 16:06, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many articles about European nations have a formula like "are an ... ethnic group ..., who share a common ancestry, culture, and history." I never saw a source for it. From Germans this formula was removed after a long and frustrating discussion. In addition to being unsourced, I think this formula is really wrong for Ukrainians. An understanding of Ukrainians as a political nation has a long tradition among Ukrainians and has been strengthened by the Russian aggression. One quote to illustrate this: "According to Putin, Russians and Ukrainians are "one people" because they are close in language, religion and history. He overlooks the fact that in the post-Soviet era, Ukrainians increasingly see themselves as a political nation, a nation by will (Willensnation, civic nation) that includes several ethnic and linguistic groups. That is why he was surprised that most Russian-speaking Ukrainians did not enthusiastically welcome the invading Russian troops, but on the contrary offered bitter resistance."^[1] Andreas Kappeler, a respected professor emeritus for East European history in Vienna, wrote this a few months after the Russian invasion of February 2022, and Timothy Snyder says something very similar in his Yale lectures.

References

^ Kappeler, Andreas. Ungleiche Brüder: Russen und Ukrainer vom Mittelalter bis zur Gegenwart. Russen und Ukrainer sind laut Putin "ein Volk", weil sie sich in Sprache, Religion und Geschichte nahestehen. Er übersieht dabei, dass sich die Ukrainer in postsowjetischer Zeit zunehmend als politische Nation, als Willensnation, die mehrere ethnische und sprachliche Gruppen umfasst, verstehen. Deshalb hat ihn auch überrascht, dass die meisten russischsprachigen Ukrainer die eingefallenen russischen Truppen nicht begeistert begrüßten, sondern im Gegenteil erbitterten Widerstand leisteten.

Rsk6400 (talk) 09:41, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is conflating two different things, the titular ethnic group and the demonym for citizens of Ukraine, who can of course be multi ethnic since the country is not homogenous. Saying "Ukrainians are an ethnic group that include ethnic groups such as Ukrainians" is convoluted and confusing. LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 18:43, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Languages

@Arctic Circle System, please see Talk:Ukrainians/Archive 5#Languages . Manyareasexpert (talk) 16:55, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Manyareasexpert: Isn't Surzhyk primarily spoken by ethnic Ukrainians? And Ukrainian is also the official spoken language of Ukraine, I don't think Ukrainian Sign Language should be removed simply because it happens to be the official sign language of Ukraine. Also that discussion didn't reach consensus, no one was involved in it except you. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 03:48, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't Surzhyk primarily spoken by ethnic Ukrainians?
No.

I don't think Ukrainian Sign Language should be removed simply because it happens to be the official sign language of Ukraine.
Let's just follow sources. [1] the Ukrainians are people whose native language is Ukrainian (an objective criterion)
[2] Етнічна мова У. — українська мова Manyareasexpert (talk) 18:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Manyareasexpert: I'm not talking about the definition of the term "Ukrainians", I'm talking about what languages Ukrainians speak. And deaf Ukrainians tend to speak Ukrainian Sign Language as a native language. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 06:18, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

what languages Ukrainians speak
Ukrainians speak a lot of languages. Like almost every other nation / ethnic group possibly do. Please see archived topic referenced above. Manyareasexpert (talk) 12:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Manyareasexpert: The difference is that Ukrainian Sign Language is frequently spoken by Ukrainians as a native language within Ukraine, which Ukrainians are native to. And I have seen that archived topic, and again, no one was involved in it except you. There was no consensus reached. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 16:27, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It should also be mentioned that Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine, and spoken by most Ukrainian citizens, even those who aren't ethnic Ukrainians. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 16:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is probably already mentioned in Ukraine. Manyareasexpert (talk) 17:46, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Manyareasexpert: It is not mentioned there at all. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 23:45, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See Official language and national language Manyareasexpert (talk) 06:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about all Ukrainians, not only those living in Ukraine. Manyareasexpert (talk) 17:45, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Manyareasexpert: The vast majority of Ukrainians live in Ukraine. And besides that, many Ukrainian diaspora populations frequently use the local language of the place they live rather than Ukrainian in daily life. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 23:50, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

... You propose to include English, Portuguese, others? Manyareasexpert (talk) 06:10, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Manyareasexpert: No, of course not. ~Red of Arctic Circle System (talk) 00:20, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Number of Ukrainians in Russia

Data on the number of Ukrainians in Russia do not have a source.
The latest available official ethnic data were obtained during the 2021 Russian Population Census.
Due to the fact that the census was conducted in 2021, the data should not fall under the WP:RUSUKR.
There is no more reliable source for Russia than the data from Rosstat, the official national statistical bureau. There are also no alternative sources evidently refuting the data provided by them. So there is no feasible reason for not accounting their data in comparison with the data of other census bureaus. Pomoscj (talk) 21:07, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Russo-Ukrainian War started in 2014. Official sources in a country without freedom of the press cannot be trusted. Rsk6400 (talk) 05:51, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your opinion is clear.

Firstly, Rosstat is not a press, but a statistical bureau. WP:RS?

Secondly, please, provide me a link to the collegial, official decision of Wikipedia, in which Rosstat as organization is recognized as an unreliable source of information. Not your personal opinion, but the position adopted by the community. WP:NOTRELIABLE?

Thirdly, where did the data presented in the table come from? "Russia 1,864,000 (2023)" What is the source? Who made a research in 2023? WP:V? The only data in the entire table without a source.

I will wait for сlarification. Thanks in advance. Pomoscj (talk) 17:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As espected, no reaction. Then, the data should be changed to the one in 2010. Pomoscj (talk) 08:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 October 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add missing template for {{pp-extended|small=yes}}, because it's already extended-confirmed protected. 5.58.98.183 (talk) 22:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done M.Bitton (talk) 00:51, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Kappeler, Andreas. Ungleiche Brüder: Russen und Ukrainer vom Mittelalter bis zur Gegenwart. Russen und Ukrainer sind laut Putin "ein Volk", weil sie sich in Sprache, Religion und Geschichte nahestehen. Er übersieht dabei, dass sich die Ukrainer in postsowjetischer Zeit zunehmend als politische Nation, als Willensnation, die mehrere ethnische und sprachliche Gruppen umfasst, verstehen. Deshalb hat ihn auch überrascht, dass die meisten russischsprachigen Ukrainer die eingefallenen russischen Truppen nicht begeistert begrüßten, sondern im Gegenteil erbitterten Widerstand leisteten.

[1]